Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение El Salo » 28 июн 2010, 16:08

Вален, я протестую, пока не увижу завявлений от капоком, с копирайтом). Они сначала могли сказать что гей (возможно это был капком юса Who haet russia!!!), потом капком жп сказала (мы не знаем), потом они же добавили (возможно, скорее да).

З.Ы. Тема для обсуждения жжет.

Capcom has hinted that Zangief is gay in his profile, which says he dislikes "young beautiful women". At the same time, Zangief had a heterosexual ending in Capcom Fighting Jam where he dreams of being in a hot tub with women. The majority of Street Fighter players have accepted him as being homosexual nonetheless.
http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/Figh ... F-47045631
Around 2003-2004, Capcom issued a statement that said he was gay.
Последний раз редактировалось El Salo 28 июн 2010, 16:14, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение pepsi_generation » 28 июн 2010, 16:12

Valen писал(а):Мда. Странно, почему они это убрали из гайда. Видимо Тиамат отошол от дел а вместо него гайдам занялся другой человек, некий Vasili10, который решил переписать многие разделы вообще по другому.
:lol:
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Valen » 28 июн 2010, 16:22

Valen wrote:Мда. Странно, почему они это убрали из гайда. Видимо Тиамат отошол от дел а вместо него гайдам занялся другой человек, некий Vasili10, который решил переписать многие разделы вообще по другому.
:lol:
Ты прикидываешься или что? Что смешного то? Я вроде ничего смешного не рассказывал.
Вален, я протестую, пока не увижу завявлений от капоком, с копирайтом). Они сначала могли сказать что гей (возможно это был капком юса Who haet russia!!!), потом капком жп сказала (мы не знаем), потом они же добавили (возможно, скорее да).
Сообственно это заявление упоминалось в прошлых версиях гайда от Тиамата так же упоминалось на СРК в обсуждениях истории СФ. Было то заявление от ЮСА капком или Джапан, я не знаю, об этом не говорилось. Но заявление было четкое и никто в СФ комьюнити не спорил с тем что оно было или с тем что именно в нем говорилось. Никто не писал о домыслах и подобном, все смирились с фактом.

ЗЫ: Конечно есть вероятность того, что капком сейчас решили что то поменять, но я пока никаких отсылок в каких нить новых сторигайдах не видел.

Предыдущая версия гайда - http://www32.brinkster.com/thegraverobb ... _Guide.txt
От сюда:
Zangief's been officially gay ever since he was first designed (the statement can be found in a source as old as the Official Street Fighter 2 Fanbook).
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение pepsi_generation » 28 июн 2010, 16:38

про лео(из тека) разрабы тоже сначала писали что это девушка, но ща всёо поменялось и пол этого персонажа считается неопределенным. так и тут, неважно че там раньше рассказывали, важно что есть сейчас, тоесть нормальный мужик)
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение BioLogIn » 28 июн 2010, 16:50

( zangi )
http://streetfighterthelateryears.com/i ... topic=32.0
I know this is an old post but being a big fan of the series I feel I have to reply.

Zangief is not gay. The claim is based on a mistake in the fan made plot canon guide. It was stated as a fact, but it was just a rumour. Back then, Google would not show any other results than the Plot Guide or discussions on the plot guide when searching for “Zangief” and “gay”.

As sources we have the Fan Book and the SFII Dash special by Gamest, as well as Zangief’s SFZ2 ending and his SFZ3 bio.

The first three all play on his relationship to The Great Man (who resembles Gorbachev) and are mistranslations. I showed the two texts of the books to people who study Japanese (and know Martial Arts and video games and manga etc.) and to actual Japanese. None of them could confirm the claims. They said they feel sorry but nothing slightly gay in there. The two are just very good friends.

The SFZ3 bio’s claim that he doesn't like young beauftiful women came 7 years after the character was first introduced so he at least wasn’t gay until then. What’s strange is that he meets Rainbow Mika in that very game and teams up with her (= doesn’t dislike her although she’s young and beautiful). So it might have something to do with their story or just describe what type of women he dislikes. Some have suggested it’s a joke on Russian women. Not sure.

While Capcom has no problem at all making Poision a transgender gang member and Eagle, the bouncer of SFI a homosexual who, constantly makes gay comments, they never even hinted towards Zangief being gay at least until SFZ3.
The Red Cyclone website (Japanese site on Zangief) says he’s defenitely not gay. Note that it didn’t talk about the topic until it was stated in the plot guide, before that, the topic didn’t exist.
And then there’s the Udon ending that is not officially done by Capcom but at least it’s approved so they didn’t feel a need to correct the ending, that shows him with young beautiful women. It’s dificult to tell what to make of that ending so I decided to ignore it in this discussion.

The picute of him posing in front of a mirror with a photo of Balrog (aka Vega in the Western World) shows their different definitions of beauty. When Balrog fights Zangief in CVS2 he shakes his head, as he does with all characters he finds ugly. Zangief thinks he’s an idiot and has it written on the picture. Balrog is obsessed with beauty kind of like Judah of Hokuto No Ken, the manga/anime that had more influence on SF than anything else.

Here is a picture from the Fan Book showing Zangief and The Great Man as wrestlers:
http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?pictu ... sMPAkRNROd
I doubt that everything in the Fan Book is official but vasili10 who currently runs the plot guide claims so. Either way, nothing gay in the text.
It might help to re-read my earlier post on this. I should address a few of these points individually.

Much of the debate about all of this seems to evaporate whenever we look at the translated text in everything from the official canon guides (which get updated fairly regularly) to the fan books and, yes, I've read them all and concur with skeptics that the loosely translated English translations leave a hell of a lot of aspects wide open to interpretation. Even the more basic alternative assumptions like the one about Zangief disliking "young, beautiful women" being a statement about a Russian man's desire for a woman of more practical substance who can pull her own weight, rather than, say, a "trophy wife", still bend over backwards to avoid the most obvious hints and clues being dropped on us and most definitely picked up on by almost any gay Street Fighter fan and ESPECIALLY gamers in the bear community. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

For starters, let's look at his physical appearance. Zangief is the ultimate musclebear in the entire world of video games. He's also THE most important bear figure in video games of any kind and has a huge following of cubs for that very reason. The fanmail I receive on his behalf overwhelmingly supports this. Then there's the unique relationship that Japan has with the bear community worldwide. Ask any bear you know who's traveled abroad; bears are disproportionately popular in Japanese gay culture. It was no surprise that it would be Japan who would be the first to make a bear figure an important character in a popular fighting game. The pro wrestler image fits perfectly into all of this as there are few sports or other examples of physical contact more homoerotic than professional wrestling. Again, no surprise to gay men when that class action lawsuit against the then WWF, that accused the organization of discrimination against heterosexual wrestlers, made the news and broadsided its nongay fans with its assertion that the WWF was a "homosexual good ol' boys' club". Zangief represents the physical embodiment of all that is manly and he is a celebration of that. At the risk of overgeneralizing here, he nevertheless is the kind of man more often attractive to other men than to women. Don't believe me? Look at any magazine that appeals to women and see what kind of man a woman finds most attractive. You'll see no beards, little if any chest hair and absolutely no back hair. In fact, at least a couple of surveys conducted over the last eight years indicate that the number one turn-off about a man to women in general is "back and chest hair". In other words, the normal secondary sex characteristics of the male that women on average only find sexually appealing during ovulation (that's a whole other story we won't go into right now). In fact, Vega is the penultimate image of the type of man who gets the lion's share of adoration from women. Note the shaven face, the long hair, the beautiful, almost feminine facial features. And who's the Street Fighter most likely to make the cover of Playgirl? Vega. Who's the Street fighter for whom the girls scream? Yup. It's Vega again (see the first feature film and the second TV series). Yet look at magazines for men and you see Zangief's type in tremendous abundance. No Tarzan fantasy lookalikes such as those who grace issues of Playgirl. Zangief very obviously would be most at home on the covers of 100% Beef, American Bear, Canadian Male, the late, great mags Drummer and Bear and also A Bear's Life. In fact, I wrote an article for A Bear's Life, about Zangief's historic importance as a pop culture ursine figure, called "Street Fighting Bear". Also, one of Zangief's most famous quotes is, "My body is perfect. I should be in a magazine". No way was he talking about a lady's magazine. Not one of them would touch him.

Now let's examine his role and stature in Street Fighter II. Like most gay characters in pop culture at that time, it was okay to represent a gay character back then just as long as you didn't necessarily announce his homosexuality (let the fans put all the obvious clues together on their own) and you avoided giving him a personal life that included, say, a significant other. Ken had Eliza. Now he has Chun Li. Guile had Julia. Ryu eventually married although we knew little about his wife. Even characters without regular amours still had obvious crushes on other characters. Chun Li was strongly attracted to Vega early on. Sakura had a crush on both Ryu and on Zangief no matter what delusions Dan Hibiki had regarding her. It's not as if Zangief was a little noticed marginal character. I won't go as far as to say that he was universally popular but I do assert that Street Fighter fans tend to no sense of neutrality regarding him; they either love him or they hate him. Either way, I find it curious that he was among the few SFII fighters who were completely phased out of all things Street Fighter. I can understand why Balrog bit the dust. He's just not a nice guy and difficult to really care about. Also, although the greatest puncher in the game, the man couldn't kick! The story has it that he made an enemy of Dhalsim by killing one of the Yoga Man's elephants with a Gigaton Punch just to demonstrate that he could do it. He also mismanaged Shadaloo out of existence after taking over the evil organization subsequent to the death of M. Bison at the hands of Akuma. He was promptly replaced by the English boxer Dudley who, although not nearly as interesting as Balrog, was a proper gentleman and a much more likable successor. Zangief, however, was eliminated despite his popularity. First from the games. Eventually all of them. Then from the movies (no more appearances from Zangief after "Street Fighter Alpha"). Finally, his last bastion of representation, the comic book series, made his elimination complete. I have no reliable data on exactly why but several reasons have been put forward. Among them:

He was the worst character in the game, meaning that, in addition to being sluggish in combat, you really had a hard time winning with him unless you learned how to master the Spinning Piledriver. A lot of players just wanted to play without having it becoming a chore.

He had almost no personal life to speak of and that kept him from being interesting. The notion that he was dumb was also a factor. Now this omission of any significant life outside the fighting arena was, for some reason, a conscious choice on Capcom's part. Surely so popular or, at least, notorious a character could have easily been given enough background to have made him more three-dimensional. He was also significantly older than most of his contemporaries yet still apparently single (for what it's worth, statistically, gay men, on average, don't marry until well after 40). Akuma was about ten years older than Zangief, yes, but he was evil and, therefore, a solitary figure. Akuma's older brother Gouken had a wife, however. So did Gen. Jury's out on Sagat, Blanka's a no-brainer and I've already made my case about E. Honda.

Then, of course, there's the opinion that he was just too controversial. One doesn't have to look too far in the fan forums worldwide to find all the raging debates about:

a) His Russian heritage

b) His patriotism for the Soviet Union and his staunch communism

c) His half naked appearance and his famously pronounced "package" that made more insecure males uncomfortable.

d) His sexual orientation, whatever that may be.

I should also point out that, just because it takes a few years to fill out a character's background with primary information, it doesn't mean that those newly added attributes are not valid. You need look only as far as Master Gouken's biographical evolution to appreciate this (Batman comes to mind, too, for that matter). It was a glitch in Dhalsim's character sprite which caued him to disappear from the screen, only to reappear elsewhere that was developed into a legitimate super power of teleportation for him.

Udon's Zangief ending for Capcom Fighting Evolution is considered by many to be an "American ending", which is to say that, as mentioned before, Zangief's homosexuality, whether real, imagined or most heavily implied (see my earlier post) needed to be downplayed for players Stateside. Even this ending turns out to be merely a fantasy of Zangief's, a reverie which is abruptly interrupted by the wrestling match in progress that he's having in the frozen wilderness with a group of polar bears. Nowhere in his story is there any female love interest to be found or, for that matter, even implied!

By the way, I never meant to imply that the Red Cyclone and the Great Man were ever supposed to be an item. It's just that his quote to this leader was just one of many indicators of things one heterosexual man would not likely say to another man, that's all. Neither have I heard anybody else make that claim.

The only really significant female in Zangief's public life is Rainbow Mika and this is because she's been a huge pro wrestling devotee since she was a little girl and, in particular, one of Zangief's greatest fans. His relationship with her, both in the comic books and in just about all the SF fiction I've read, is that of a subject of fan worship to his protege. Indeed, Zangief has helped train her personally and has urged his fellow Street Fighters to support her when she appears in the tournaments. In not a single canon guide or story line either in or out of the game itself have I ever read of any kind of romantic entanglement between them and I've read more than most, trust me. Surely, if Zangief was being portrayed as a nongay fighter, this would have presented the most obvious opportunity for some kind of physical attraction between the two. Otherwise, why bring her so prominently and publicly into his life and career at all? Why indeed make her so obviously scantily clad, voluptuous and as busty as Zangief is endowed only to have no sexual energy of any kind generated between them? I mean, come on! No, the clues are not to be found in the possible meanings behind obscure interpretations of mistranslated text sources nor other such vague and debatable references but from the most obvious things staring us right in the face and put there very coyly, humorously and cleverly by the designers who created him. Not only was it not lost on this gay bear but countless others picked up on it, too.

Art imitating life, however, I'm perfectly inclined to accept that Zangief has his way with both men and women but, being the kind of obvious "man's man" that he is, probably leans more in his tastes to the masculine side of physical company. So much of this perpetual debate bears such a black and white, "them and us" aspect to it when , in reality, there are far more gray areas in life than there are "either-ors". I will say this: I have researched my character exhaustively and probably know things about him that even the most ardent Zangief fans don't know.

One might accuse my own sexual identity of coloring the way I see Zangief and that argument might actually carry merit except for the fact that I know it's not the case for me. Look, I'm an actor and Zangief is not the first character I've played with whom I've fallen in love. Every character I've ever played before Zangief, however, no matter how much affection I've had for them, has been either decidedly non-gay or of unknown sexual inclination. I'm not Method. Therefore I feel no necessity whatsoever to infuse any of my personal biases into any character to whom I've been assigned, as much as I would like to have maybe had something like that in common with a character that gave me joy to play. Everything I've ever learned throughout my extensive research into Zangief has set my gaydar off the charts with flashing lights no matter how objectively I approach him and he's triggered that attention with countless other gay men and, primarily, gay bears as well.

Were Zangief clearly not gay, believe it or not, I'd have no problem accepting that and still loving the heck out of him, just as I've done with so many of the nongay men I've portrayed (and continue to portray) over the years. It's simply the most obvious evidence to the contrary that is the most overwhelming.

In SF fiction Zangief's homosexuality has always been dealt with in a very straightforward and matter-of-fact manner. In "Street Fighter Reunion" we will do the very same (with lots of humor, of course) and, you know what? There's no reason why we can't give him a female once in a while, too.
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение sk0111 » 28 июн 2010, 17:11

я не понял, тут давно не банили, что-ли никого?

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение pepsi_generation » 28 июн 2010, 17:17

очень круто бы звучало еслиб ты был админом или супер модером)
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Valen » 28 июн 2010, 18:06

В общем теперь считается что он не гей? %) Ну ок %) Раньше считалось что Шин Гоку Сатсу убило Байсона полностью. Но видимо нет %) И Гуокен тоже вроде мертвый был до поры до времени %)
В общем по поводу Занги теперь надо взять самим Official Street Fighter 2 Fanbook, перевести и узнать что там и как. Поскольку источник который являлся в общем то гланым гайдом по СФ вселенной теперь дискредитирован, хотя я если честно ХЗ что это за сайт Бу линканул и что это за люди там пишут %)))
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение mas » 30 июн 2010, 01:57

Ну так как в СФ2 разрабы как бы представили персонажей, представляющих собой набор распространенных в Японии штампов, то вполне вероятно, что Занги - клише японских мэнли-геев...
Да, и теперь после приведенной выше цитаты, как-то по иному воспринимается инфа про Занги из СФ2, что он тренировался в Сибири, борясь с медведами...

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение perfecti » 30 июн 2010, 02:11

в этой всей истории самое забавное, что для японцев супер-гей это занги, а для остальных - вега.
говорят же - япония, это другая планета)
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Guido » 30 июн 2010, 14:09

Расскажите, пожалуйста, про отличия сф3 от Б версии :)

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Valen » 30 июн 2010, 14:18

Гвидо не обижайся но смотри какая ситуация, я говорю "прекращайте про геев", потом Бу говорит "прекращайте про геев", вы продолжаете, я удаляю все посты оффтопные про это дело и никому не даю ворнов, но ты опять про это пишеш. Так что это ворн.

По поводу версии Б. Версия 3С версия Б появилась в японских аркадах где то в начале 2000 года или в самом конце 1999. Она была призвана пофиксить баги типа анблокаблов у Юрьена и Оро, и еще какие то моменты о которых я невкурсе. Была установлена всего в нескольких аркадах и не прижилась поскольку эти анблокаблы уже к тому момент достаточно серьезно вошли в игровой стиль персонажей. В ЗЫ2 порте 3С есть даже возможность переключаться между версиями 3С, и если не ошибаюсь то Дримкаст версия 3С базировался как раз на версии Б.
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Guido » 30 июн 2010, 14:22

Я ни разу не увидел про прекращайте про геев, сорри) я даж не заметил что ты что-то потер.

А фрейм-дату там меняли? Кто-нибудь ее считал более сбалансированной или нет?

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Valen » 30 июн 2010, 14:36

Точной инфы про изменение фрейм даты у меня нету. Но вот в Дримкаст версии 3С которая базируется на версии Б вроде бы часть фрейм даты изменена. Хотя опять же я лично не считал, и слышал только разговоры об этом.
leadjunglegame.com

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RoBoBOBR
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение RoBoBOBR » 30 июн 2010, 15:56

а еще дримкаст версия лагаэ на инпуте, отчего нелюбима.
-=BoOZe cRew=-

он мечтал, чтобы у всего человечества было одно ухо, в которое он мог бы нахамить

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Valen » 30 июн 2010, 15:57

Это да. Там хитконфермить что то очень напряжно по этой причине. Хотя за неимением альтернативы приходилось и ей довольствоватся. %)
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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Guido » 03 июл 2010, 17:10

Махо Седзе Зангитан действительно девушка или это огромный(1м 71 см) и не очень волосатый японец?

Если это девушка, то фотке есть?)

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение sk0111 » 03 июл 2010, 18:55

Guido
С виду среднестатистический японский школьник-

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Guido » 03 июл 2010, 21:33

Понятно, спасибо)_
Только Mepu что ли из девушек у них играет?))

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Re: Вопросы по файтингам или "Нубы о 2.0"

Сообщение Lazy Psycho » 04 июл 2010, 05:03

Kayo Police еще играет, которая по слухам еще и моделью работает

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